Note from BW of Brazil: He’s back!!! It’s funny, in our year-ending New Year’s Eve post featuring our most viewed posts of the year, futebol superstar Neymar appeared in the countdown because of an article posted here almost three years ago. BW of Brazil doesn’t specifically focus on sports or athletes unless their story touches on some aspect of race. As such, this is the same criteria for which Neymar pops up here from time to time. Little did we know that it would be about week before the Brazilian National Team captain would grace our pages again…and once again the star shows that he may great on the field, but in issues of race, someone really needs to sit him down and have a talk…
And it’s not just BW of Brazil who can see this as you will see…
Spanish league will analyze cries against Neymar; Espanyol denies racist acts
Courtesy of ESPN.com.br with Gazeta Press
ESPN correspondent in Barcelona reveals racism on the part of Espanyol fans against Neymar
The racist abuse suffered by Neymar in the game last Saturday between Espanyol and Barcelona should not go unpunished. According to reports from the Spanish newspaper As, the Spanish League already has in its possession videos and audios where the cries against the Brazilian are noticeable, and will analyze the actions and then do something about it.
If the offenses are confirmed, a report with denouncements should be sent to the Anti-Violence Commission and Competition Committee, which have power to impose penalties on the case.
Rádio Catalunha also informed that Barcelona requested that the League include racist screams in the summary of the match, that the principle hadn’t been placed by the referee responsible for the document.
Espanyol denies racism
After watching the confrontation at the stadium, Joan Collet, president of Espanyol, fervently denied that the attacks on Neymar really happened.
Neymar was the target of racist chants
According to the representative, the conduct of the fans was positive, and the charges don’t match the truth.
“It’s a lie that there were racist chants at the stadium. I was there, like the other 30,000 people in the audience and there was nothing. It was a high-stakes game and there was no incident, no problem. The attitude of the fans was to tip your hat to. They were cheering the entire game, then, so say that there was a racist scream is a lie,” he said. “Since measures were implemented against Espanyol fans have been exemplary,” he concluded.
Neymar prefers not to rebut racist abuse in Spain: ‘I just play futebol’
Striker was discriminated against in Barcelona Classic
Courtesy of O Dia
Last Saturday, striker Neymar was the victim of racism in Spain. After the Catalão classic against Espanyol, La Sexta TV caught some fans of the rival club imitating sounds of monkeys after the Brazilian was heading to the locker room. The former Blaugrana director Toni Freixa denounced prejudice regarding number 11 on Twitter, but the striker chose not to present a firm stance on the matter.
“I didn’t hear the screams. I don’t hear things outside the field. It’s difficult for things to bother me, I just play futebol,” he said in an interview with Atresmedia after leaving the hospital in which he visited children hospitalized on Monday.
The video released by the channel also shows fairly aggressive behavior of fans with many Barca team members such as Neymar and Suarez.
Racism shakes Neymar because he doesn’t think he’s black
By Marcondes Brito
When Daniel Alves suffered attacks, Neymar launched the “Somos Todos Macacos” (We Are All Monkeys) campaign
The Espanyol fans not only attacked Neymar in Staurday’s game in Barcelona. Messi (problems with the tax authorities), Piquet (insulting his wife Shakira) and Suarez (called him a cannibal) were also victims. But it was the racist insults directed at Neymar that had planetary repercussions. It was all people talked about.
Neymar kept quiet. He didn’t post anything in his social network pages (just on Twitter he has over 20 million followers), but is almost certain to have been shaken, even very upset!
It was not the first time that this has happened. In 2011, the Brazilian team faced Scotland in a friendly match in London. Neymar played very well and scored two goals, but the game was marked by an external act: the athlete was battling for the ball close to the goal line when a banana was thrown in his direction. The game was stopped, the banana withdrawn, and the person responsible identified and punished hours later.
In April 2014, after another defeat of Barcelona, the fans of the Catalão team went to the team’s training center and insulted the players, saying they “only think of the World Cup” and don’t commit themselves to the team. When they passed Neymar, the fans imitated the sound made by monkeys. The idol of the Brazilian team didn’t say anything about it, merely posting cryptic messages on Instagram: “There are times when the path is difficult.”
The truth is that the issue of racism troubles Neymar much more than we can imagine. When he was 18 and played for Santos, the star gave an interview to Estadão journalist Sonia Racy and the inevitable question came:
“Have you ever been a victim of racism?” asked Racy.
Neymar replied: “Never. Neither on nor off the field. Really because I’m not black, right?”
Neymar makes the worst decision in front of racists. He imitates Pelé. He doesn’t perceive it. His silence is an accomplice of prejudice. Neymar needs to accept that he is black. Thank God…
By Cosme Rímoli
“I didn’t hear the screams. I don’t hear things outside the field. I only play futebol.”
That was the disappointing response from Neymar before the manifestation of racism of the Spanish fans. Again he had every chance to face the ignorant. People comparing black people to monkeys. Again, he stepped back.
It was impossible not to hear the screams of the stupid thugs in Cornellà-El Prat stadium on Saturday in the tie between Español and Barcelona. The wild ones in the modern arena howled and mimicked apes when Neymar took the ball. The scene was pitiful. It was transmitted throughout the world.
The Spanish media and those who follow futebol on this planet await a firm stance from the player.
Neymar is captain of the Seleção Brasileira (Brazilian national team). He is, alongside Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, among those vying for the Bola de Ouro (Golden Ball) as the world’s best. English journalists ensure that Manchester United would be willing to pay R$850 million for him. 54.5 million fans on Facebook. Are 39.8 million followers on Instagram. Over 40.4 million on Twitter.
His representation is absurd.
About 30 people administer Neymar’s career. Who most influences him is his father. And his philosophy is simple.
“I want Neymar to worry about the ball, with futebol. He is a player, period.”
Neymar Sênior believes he is protecting his son. Avoiding that he position himself in what he calls controversial issues. Like the lawsuits that Santos and the DIS group moved against the two for Neymar Jr’s odd sale to Barcelona. It is also only he who talks about the actions in court and the Spanish tax authorities. Or the Brazilian Federal Revenue embargo of the property of the National Team’s number 10.
“Pelé contributed to racism. The guy is the athlete of the century, the most popular figure in the world and doesn’t use it to fight for just causes. (…) If he had some notion or sensitivity, he would make a revolution in this case [racism]. He has more impact than political and religious leaders.”
These were the brave words of Paulo César Caju. One of the only people to have the courage to charge Pelé on his eternal omissions with respect to racism.
“If I were to want to stop the game every time they call me macaco (monkey) or crioulo, every game would stop. The fan really screams. We have to curb racism. But it’s not in a public place that you will restrain it. Santos (team) had Dorval, Coutinho, Pelé…all black. We were insulted with everything that’s a name. There were no fights because we didn’t give it any attention. The more you talk about it, the more you have racism.”
This was the stance of Pelé. You can also pretend you didn’t hear what was coming from the stands. Of rivals. And even from teammates and from the Seleção. He was called Gasolina (gasoline) upon arriving at Santos, a reference to blacks with oil. Then ‘Alemão’ (German), as pure irony. And several world champion players called him ‘crioulo’.
Neymar follows this sad playbook of silence. He makes believe it doesn’t happen to him. In 2009 he gave a famous reply in an interview with O Estado de São Paulo.
He was still playing in Brazil. And he was asked if he had suffered from racism. “Never. Neither on nor off the field. Really because I’m not black, right?”
In the same article he was shown with hair straightened with chemicals. The player is descended from black, which should be a source of great pride. As if he were descended from Asians, German, Indians or any ethnic group. Every human being deserves respect.
The directors of Barcelona don’t prohibit nor stimulate the positioning of its athletes on the issue. Each does what he wants or has personality. Like Daniel Alves, that when he saw a banana thrown in his direction by Villarreal fans he ate it, as if it were something natural as possible. As if he weren’t playing against Villarreal, in the Barcelona jersey.
“I’ve been in Spain 11 years ago and 11 years it’s been like this. We have to laugh at this backward people. Unfortunately it is a lost war until they take more drastic measures,” he said in April 2014.
What did Neymar do? He posted a ‘força, Daniel’ (be strong, Daniel). And posted a picture with his son. He held a real banana and the child, a plastic one. It was part of #somostodosmacacos (we are all monkeys) campaign.
In March, a month before, he and Neymar had suffered racism. Fans imitated monkeys when he picked up the ball. Against who? And where? Against Espanhol in Cornellà-El Prat stadium. That is, a year later, everything was repeated. Even the striker’s silence.
In 2014, Barcelona was eliminated from the Champions League and then lost to Granada in the Espanhola. The players returned to pick up their cars, when fans of the Catalunha club itself began cursing at the athletes. For Neymar, they reserved the screams, imitating monkeys. What did the Brazilian do? He remained silent.
Referee Jose Luiz González, who worked the tie 0-0 between Spanish and Barcelona, repeated the stance of several Brazilian judges. In his summary nothing unusual happened. As if it were normal for a bunch of thugs to keep imitating monkeys at a player.
Neymar is 23 years old. He is captain of the National Team. And a father. He is one of the greatest players in the world.
He is afrodescendente (of African descent), yes.
In front of any mirror comes the truth.
The color of your skin, your frizzy hair that was falling out it was so artificially treated, doesn’t let him forget. He has black ancestry.
No one expects that he be someone politicized, with brilliant discourse on all matters. Just show disgust at the racist. Following the footsteps of Pelé is pitiful.
Shut up, don’t confront these idiots, it’s no use. On the contrary. He allows them to go on freely with racism.
Daniel Alves has shown the way. Neymar disguises, dodges, pretends. He acts as if he were the criminal.
It is the captain of the Brazilian team that remains silent. Millions of blacks and their descendants are not monkeys. It would be his duty to remind these stupid ones. The player’s silence is shameful.
“What worries me is not even the cry of the corrupt, violent, rogue, without the character of unethical … What worries me is the silence of good men.”
Someone needs to introduce Martin Luther King to Neymar.
And say that he is black.
Thank God…
Note from BW of Brazil: In reality, the pieces above have just about covered this whole issue and what we posted on Neymar back in February 2013 clearly applies to this latest shameful display of a lack of racial consciousness. Other material posted on this blog should give a reader a pretty image of of Neymar as a ‘would be’ black man. From his blond bombshell, processed hair days, to four-act relationship with racial issues, in many ways, Neymar simply represents the way in which millions of (would be) black Brazilians have been indoctrinated to deal with issues of race by not dealing with them. The evidence of this is the way in which Junior was oriented on the issue by Senior.
Numerous personal stories on this blog provide evidence of how Brazilians of African descent are often raised to deny being black, are trained to believe that racism doesn’t exist in Brazil, go through a process of ‘becoming black’, experience family efforts to erase their blackness, learn negative connotations of blacks or witness no discussion of race at home along with a strong dosage of white adoration and one can begin to see what contributes to Neymar being Neymar on the race issue. In many ways, Neymar’s weak stance on the issue of race is not his own fault. It is the ‘Brazilian Way’ and this is the reason for which this writer no longer gets into discussions on which country is more racist between the United States and Brazil. Racism is racism, but Brazil’s racism is more effective than that of the US for the simple fact that there are many more persons of visible African ancestry that view race and racism in a way similar to Neymar.
In closing, I must disagree with the last article’s idea that Neymar needs to be introduced to the work of Martin Luther King, Jr. In a country in which people instinctively utter the phrase “we are all equal” despite the overwhelming evidence of racism and black subjugation, MLK’s message has been appropriated and is being used to solidify a mythical equality that everyone wants to believe in even as Afro-Brazilians are victimized by racism everyday or murdered in the streets at extremely alarming rates. As long as all of the institutions of power in are held and controlled by persons who consider themselves to be white, and these people continue to exclude non-whites from gaining such power, MLK’s ideology solves nothing. If you don’t believe this, perhaps we should analyze the treatment of African-Americans in MLK’s own country.
Over the past few decades, millions of Afro-Brazilians have learned the truth about race in Brazil and it has been a long, slow process through conversation, education and exposure to the right material. Neymar da Silva Santos Júnior, like millions of others, is simply a victim of Brazil’s sophisticated method of deception that disarms non-white people even before they can arm themselves with the pertinent information. We can only hope that Neymar one day has the desire to access this information. Until that time, we will continue to read stories such as the one featured above.
Source: R7 Esportes, Terceiro Tempo, ESPN
Only education will solve this problem. Most Brazilian blacks, even the wealthy ones do not educate themselves. Without education you cannot fight racism. It is shameful that in this day and age a Black man, even a mixed one would aspire to be Black. Nobody can teach you to be Black and Proud. If you are a millionaire footballer and cannot stand for what is right then shame on you. As for what the respondent said about MLK he is sadly mistaken. We in America partly because of MLK have won the Presidency, we are not there yet but we certainly are on our way. When you consider that Salvador a city with 80 percent of Africans has a white governor then Blacks in Brasil have not started
“Aspire to be White”
Hey Charles. I have to respectfully disagree with some of the things you wrote. Here’s why:
1) I think it’s a bit of a contradiction for you to first say that “Only education will solve this problem” and then turn around and say that “Nobody can teach you to be Black and Proud”. Education and knowledge of self leads to pride. I’ve seen numerous cases that show this, some of which are posted on this blog.
2) On MLK, the story of King is basically a farse. This man was chosen by the very same elites who uphold white supremacy precisely because he would promote the idea of ‘non-violence’ and integration. Equality can never be achieved with non-violence. Full rights come through blood shed. Malcolm X reminded us of this. MLK was promoted to black Americans so that he could drown out the message of more militant black leaders who suggested an armed approach. Every January the media promotes MLK because, for most of his public career, he was simply a pawn of the power structure.
Integration under a system of white supremacy leads to nothing but destruction and continued exploitation. Nearly 50 years after MLK, 90-95% or more of African-American money lines the pockets of non-blacks. 50 years after MLK, blacks are still being mercilessly slaughtered in the streets if America. The media promotes a figure such as MLK because they don’t want black people discover black intellectuals and leaders who had better plans to directly confront white exploitation. But 90% of black Americans have never heard of those people. Coincidence? Not at all.
3) Obama is perhaps even stronger “Kool Aid” than MLK. His presence as president for eight years had brought nothing to the black community. He has done nothing but speak down to the black community but black folks continue to support him. Obama, like any other American president, was put in places by the forces of money and that money didn’t come from black people. “He who pays the piper calls the tune” and 92-96% of black Americans voting for 8 years of Obama has brought nothing to the black community.
4) Having black mayors and governors actually doesn’t automatically bring anything unless that mayor or governor has the financial backing to promote real policies to promote the uplifting of the community. The US has had numerous black mayors and even a few black governors, but show me the condition of black people in the cities and states where they governed.
We cannot measure black progress by individual rich blacks or even black presidents because, in general, these people do nothing to provoke real change of the black community as a whole. The white power structure allows these black get achieve a certain level of individual wealth but when they seek to “rock the boat”these same forces will bring that person down. I believe the whole Bill Cosby controversy is proof of that.
Hi Gatas – I think your insights make for an interesting discussion. However, I believe some of them embody the extreme rhetoric that tends to keep Black people stuck. I will address them here:
2) I DEFINITELY think that you (along with many others who live conveniently and comfortably NOW, rather than in the time BEFORE the Civil Rights Movement ) oversimplify the legacy of MLK. I would disagree that the man was simply a pawn that white people chose just because he had a message of non-violence. Instead, I think he deeply understood the hearts of white people everywhere – that they are afraid of being wiped out by war, famine, genetic anihilation…you name it. Sure, we could have simply had a war in which we Blacks – who only account for 12% of the American population, and who had access to very little before MLK – would have been decimated by the white majority. Or we could have someone who knew how to move past the constant fear of white people so that dialogues could be had and rights could be obtained. Black people who say that “we haven’t achieved ANYTHING since the Civil Rights Movement” (I am speaking specifically of Americans here), is a fucking idiot who can’t read or who has no access to parents or grandparents who actually had to live during the time of the KKK coming through neighborhoods and slaughtering people at will, not being able to go to any restaurant they wanted to to have dinner, who HAD to go to a crappy school to try to be educated, who had absolutely no chance whatsoever to be the CEO of a corporation or to be the president of the United States of America. The rhetoric is sickening and ridiculous. The fact that there are still poor Black people in the world, or that racism still exists does not mean that the man was a farse and that he did nothing!
Also, in the age of the internet (and things like “Black Twitter” 🙂 ) I would say that, at some point, Black Americans can no longer use “the media” as a scapegoat for what (the uneducated and poor among us) don’t know. At some point we will need to develop some degree of intellectual curiosity and explore without waiting for a white mammy or pappy to tell us that we “can”!
Those of us who actively look for the signs of change see it loudly and clearly. However, those of us who expect to wake up one day to discover that we have inherited a fortune from a rich relative or that we have nothing to strive for in life or that all traces of racism and tribalism have disappeared overnight…well…those folks are going to continue to be disappointed by life…
3) I would also say that the rhetoric that Obama’s presidency has done “nothing” for Blacks is a bit misguided , whiny, and extreme. I would say that the millions of Black people (who make up a large percentage of the poor in America) who now have health insurance, or the ones who had the president give them a “get out of jail free” card when he pardoned their sentences, or the millions of Black men who will now be able to legally find work because President Obama has made it illegal for companies to request that ex-prisoners tell employees that they were prisoners (an issue that disproportionately affects Blacks), or the millions of teens who have chosen to finish school (as the dropout rate among Blacks is significantly lower now than when he started), or one of the Black farmers that received part of the $ 1.2 BILLION subsidy specifically earmarked for Black farmers who could not get loans, or one of the students at an HBCU that had it’s funding expanded (even as HBCUs are going extinct), or one of the Blacks that had some unfair dealings investigated by the government’s Civil Rights Division (a division which did not exist before President Obama)…well, I’d say that these are some of the people who might disagree with you.
If you were expecting Obama to be a Black Santa Clause,running around giving out candy to all of the Black people in America and around the world simply because they are Black…well…I can see why you would be disappointed! If you expected that Obama could single-handedly erase all of the racism in the world and unfair treatment that many Blacks (those that are poor AND uneducated) face in the world…well…I can see why you would be disappointed. And if you expected President Obama to singlehandedly erase all white supremacist thought and action on the planet, I have to remind you that there is a BIG difference between reality and a superhero movie that you might see on tv!
President has done a LOT for Black people since he became president. But, unfortunately, many of us need for him to ride out on a white horse holding a sign that says “I’m doing this ONLY FOR BLACK PEOPLE” before we will develope the sight necessary to actually observe what he has done. The fact that scared white police are being caught killing Black men does NOT absolutely negate the good the man has done. The fact that the unemployement rate among Blacks is higher, (after the worst recession the country has seen since the Great Depression of 1930s) again, does NOT absolutely negate the good Obama has done for Black people. But if you want him to declare that his policies are for Blacks and that no one else is to be included in the benefit…well…you already know what I think about that…
4) Unfortunately, there is this fiction that ALL Black people are poor, and that only and handfull of us have any wealth in the world. To that, I would invite you to visit very “Black” cities (besides any place in Michigan) and walk around affluent neighborhoods (‘m talking Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Birmingham, Chicago,). What you WONT see on the news, unfortunately, is Black families who are affluent and simply live their lives. In those neighborhoods, you will observe PLENTY of “rich” Black folks. But when you observe them, you must then fight the urge to downplay them, write them off completely, pretend that they are a hallucination that you didn’t REALLY see, pretend that they are not Black simply because they have money, downplay the money that they have because they didn’t inherit it from a grandfather, downplay their wealth because they are not as wealty as Bill Gates, downplay their wealth because it didn’t come from a business that they themselves built from the ground up, downplay their wealth because they did not immediately turn around and give it all to poor Blacks, or pretend that their wealth is somehow “not real” or “less valid” than the wealth of all other populations in the world. If you go looking for alternatives to the constant drumbeat of negative rhetoric against Blacks BY other Blacks, you will surely find it!
Hello there Bama!!
Of course this would be a very long discussion and I don’t want to give the idea that I have over-simplified the points I’ve made. But when people decide to look a deeper beneath the carpet rather that the propaganda the media feeds us, you will see that the things I wrote are in fact true.
It’s late at this moment so I won’t go too far with this right now, but I stand by what I have written about King and Obama. Much of MLK’s ideology came directly from a sexual deviant named Bayard Rustin, who influenced him to use the non-violent tactic. Also, when you look into MLK you will see that he was chosen to basically muffle the more militant African-American leaders who weren’t buying a non-violent movement. Many things about King are an absolute sham and he was a controlled pawn until the latter years of his life when he took a more militant stance, a stance that would cost him his life.
Needless to say, “the powers that be” don’t give statues and monuments to our true black leaders. I won’t be expecting monuments to Malcolm or Garvey any time soon as America doesn’t want black folks to embrace the message of these two giants.
On Obama…simply too much to discuss here. Again, I stand by what I wrote. When I see black folks still debating about who the next president should be it simply proves to me that we as a people still don’t understand the truth about politics, which is why most black people get offended when someone critiques Obama. Before I started digging into this Obama enigma, I fell for it too! Obama is the one that really made me come to terms with some hard truths; hard truths that 95% of people won’t get. Let me say this. When people were saying things about Obama eight years ago, I dismissed it as racism…until I looked beneath the carpet and saw that many things that people were saying were actually true.
ObamaCare? Another scam. But I don’t have time to discuss this right now. I will say, search for the truth if you really want to find it…
I love a good debate…
I would also invite you to observe other wealthy Blacks who have been “allowed” to be wealthy and not use Bill Cosby as your only example of a prominent Black person who is now in hot water. In case you dont know who they are, please research the following wealthy Black people:
Oprah Winfrey (of course)
Michael Jordan
Dr. Dre
Tyler Perry
Beyonce Knowles
Magic Johnson
Robert Johnson
Sheila Jones
Berry Gordy
Herman Russell
Will Smith
Robert F. Smith
The list goes on, but these will give you as start. And, again, when you read about some of these people, I would encourage to resist the urge to downplay these intelligent and talented people because some act, produce music, or play sports (as if these are any less valid than being lucky enough to be one of the first to discover oil in a region, or being white enough to get a loan in the late 1800s so that you could build a business that would eventually become a multi million/billion dollar industry).
Again, without getting into a long drawn out response, I will tell you that ALL blacks who achieve that degree of wealth are allowed to do so by the power structure. Any one of these men or women can be destroyed by the same power that allowed them to gain their fortune. We don’t have to stick to Cosby. Perhaps the best example out there would Michael Jackson, who was in fact killed. MJ was starting to speak out too much plus he owed of the most lucrative music catalogs in music history.
Berry Gordy was run out of Detroit which is why he moved his company to LA. And who owns Motown today? Will Smith. Haha…No comment! Beyonce? Really…Check out the symbolism that both she and her husband use. Any man wearing shirts endorsing the words of Aleister Crowley should show you whose team he’s on! Tyler Perry? Homosexual agenda. Dr. Dre? Woman beater and a strong promoter of the BS Hip Hop sex, drugs and violence. Oprah? Again…You won’t see it if you’re looking for the obvious. But Oprah does nothing with her fame and fortune to ‘rock the boat’. Look at the New Age and ‘The Secret’ type stuff she promoted on her show. Bob Johnson? Started off with a good idea before letting it turn into “booty exercise television”. Who owns BET today? They ain’t black! You don’t reach that level of fame and fortune unless you’ve already sold out. Period. Think about your mega church pastors for example. Deep topic. But I can prove everything I write…
As I said, you must resist the urge to pretend like Black people who have money only have it because they are a part of the illuminati. You are displaying a STRONG case of crab syndrome here, in which you grudgingly acknowledge that there are a lot of rich Black folks in the world, but f*ck them because they aren’t perfect (according to your rules of life), and you assume that they are not simply talented people who know how to exist in multiple societies (as opposed to one that is exclusively Black). Also, it is interesting that rich Black people are also expected to be perfect bastions of society before their talent or wealth can be fully recognized by other Black people! Like … well…all people on the planet Earth, rich Black people have skeletons in their closets! Is this really news? That rich Blacks, like rich whites/Asians/Latinos are not Jesus Christ? Get real! Maybe all these Black people are rich because they are all devil worshipping members of a secret society of gatekeepers that only “let” a certain number of them succeed at a time…or maybe they are simply imperfect human beings who are intelligent and talented, such that they have been able to earn a lot of money for those talents. I have never been able to understand the tendency for many Blacks to place all of their insecurities and expectations in life on the shoulders of successful Blacks, as if it is absolutely their responsibility to be the mother or father taking care of the needs of all Blacks!
Also, MLK’s ideology of nonviolence actually came primarily from his studies about Mahatma Gandhi and how he lead Indians from under British rule. Again, for true progress to be made for masses of people at a sustained level, sometimes dialogues must happen. He basically followed Gandhi’s already proven blueprint: step 1 – bring national and international attention to the plight of Black Americans via non-violent protests in which alies are gained rather than enemies who could easily write them off as a group of violent nigger savages who deserve nothing. step 2 – fuck with the money of the powers that be. Just as Gandhi lead Indians to disrupt the British economy by getting their salt from the ocean, rather than buying it from oppressive British companies, MLK instigated the Birmingham bus boycott to produce the same economic effect. Shortly thereafter, actual laws began to change. Though it’s fun to debate what shoulda/coulda/woulda been done “if”, we must stay present with the fact that this was an extremely violent and dangerous time for ALL Blacks in America (not just the poor ones). Don’t forget that the “nigger-loving” President John F. Kennedy and Senator Robert F. Kennedy were assassinated, in part because of their ideological and political support for the Civil Rights Movement. We must not forget that buses were burned and people died. We must also not forget that, as I have stated before, the 10 – 12% of Blacks living in America would have been absolutely no match for the majority white, gun owning population of America! I encourage you to go deeper into this history by reading timelines and facts without the addition of rhetoric from a passionate author.
Maybe MLK was a controlled pawn…or maybe he was the leader of one of the most (if not THE most) effective Civil Rights Movements for Black people in a Black minority society the world has ever seen. Again, the militant element was needed as well as they spured many Blacks out of complacency. But lets get real – the giant steps forward by American Blacks were not made because of the militants. They were made largely because the movement produced a leader who was not scary to white people and who could, thus, push a clear political agenda forward. Though lots of the rhetoric would have you believe that Blacks are being gunned down in the streets of America today, left and right with impunity for whomever chooses to do it, as soon as you turn off the tv or youtube channel of the rhetorical militant Blacks, you will see a very different picture. But you gotta walk around America, or look at what non militant Blacks are producing. This is in stark contrast to the time before the Civil Rights Movement (and I would urge you to have an actual conversation with a Black American who is 65 years or older who was alive in pre Civil Rights Movement America and post Civil Rights Movement America to get a better idea of just how far Black Americans have com, rather than exclusively reading and listening to ex- Black Panthers or Blacks confined to academia. I would urge you to speak to the average Jane or Joe about their very real and lived experiences )
Also, I must re-iterate that if you were one of the people who saw Obama as a Santa Claus who could or would single-handedly erase the spectre of racism and white supremacy in America and in the world, I would say that your expectations were not realistic. You are allowed to critique Obama, but others are also allowed to rebut your critiques (as is wont for any good debate 🙂 ). Also, Obamacare is hardly a scam (and again, I would urge you to contact real people who have never had healthcare who suddenly now have access to it, rather than to those who have a kneejerk reaction of “whatever President Obama does…it still isn’t enough because bad things still happen on the planet”!) Since I have have friends and family who are currently happily benefiting from Obamacare, I can say with 100% accuracy that, though it has some imperfections (as any government program less than 5 years old meant to cover the massive uninsured population of the USA would have), it is definitely not a scam!
Thanks for the discussion. Also, if you don’t think that Oprah has ever “rocked the boat”, I would urge you to do more research 🙂
“Also, it is interesting that rich Black people are also expected to be perfect bastions of society” –
I NEVER expect anyone to be a perfect bastion of society. The simple fact is that in order to be part of “the team” you must already be corrupt and willing to sell out your own people to reach the top. Rebbin Al, Jesse and many more fit into this category…I believe that Cosby is being dragged through the mud now perhaps because he was trying to make some power moves that some people didn’t like. This is most likely what got his son killed.
On JFK, support for the Civil Rights was the least reason for his assassination. There were numerous reasons. He tried to shut down the Fed. He angered big and would have cost them billions. He crossed MOB ties. He tried to shut down the CIA and many other reasons of which Civil Rights were not a major concern.
Ghandi is often misunderstood. First, I don’t even look to Ghandi, who was a racist who thought Indians were better than black people. And 2, his ideology wasn’t completely non-violent. He sought non-violent means of change first, but if that didn’t work he was ready to fight and had millions behind him.
I don’t doubt that changes have happened in the US. I know people who lived in the era between the late 50s and early 70s. But I see this all as window dressing. As we see, 50 years after all of that most black communities still have no wealth, no control of their economy, vastly unemployed and still shot down in the streets as if it were the Jim Crow era. Thus, nearly 50 years after the death of MLK, black Americans continue to be treated as second class citizens.
The true effects of ObamaCare will not be seen immediately. It is simply another means to take money from the population and in the future after it is fully implemented we will see it for the scam that it is. Yes, some people have benefited…so far. But others have lost their health care, seen their rates explode and being forced to buy into what they cannot afford. ObamaCare is basically another gift to the Health Care industry. An American system that is already the most expensive in the world. Don’t judge ObamaCare for what you see at the moment. The same as NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, that continues the decline of the education system, the real effects of ObamaCare won’t seen for another few years.
We need to stop falling for the deceptions. And in every case you mention I see deception.
Lets get real – that you expect for your rich Black to ALSO be somehow “better” than everyone else is implicit in your criticisms of them because: they have a gay agenda, they beat someone, they have white friends, they are still alive (and thus, they MUST be doing SOMETHING wrong if they are still rich…). It is interesting that you will also point out ONLY Bill Cosby and Michael Jackson and completely forget about all the other wealthy and powerful Blacks in America. For them to be legitimate, is it absolutely necessary for them to denounce white supremacy? And if they do not publicly do this, then they are illegitimate in some way? If they know how “the game of life is played” (which, sorry, WILL include dealing with white people at some level), they MUST be involved in some nefarious undertakings? And if we talk about how “they” don’t “allow” Blacks to continue to move forward, then why don’t we put the same spotlight on whites who have lost everything and died? Did “they” also contribute the Charlie Sheen’s HIV, or Elvis Presley’s demise at the age of 42, or Marilyn Monroe’s death at a young age, or the general f*cked up nature of the Getty family (basically a family of billionaires who get kidnapped, have mystyrious illnesses, and die young)? Are “they” killing their own, or is it more likely that Bill Cosby and Michael Jackson played with fire (just as did all of the dead white folks I just listed) and got burned?
Also, you REALLY need to touch up your American history because it is WELL documented that the Kennedy’s support for the Civil Rights Movement was, among other things, one of the things that got them killed. Just because you have chosen to not believe American history so that you can have a stronger argument, does not make what you are saying true. Sorry bud.
Where MLK and Gandhi were concerned, I was simply correcting you about where MLK got a lot of his non-violent protest ideology from. Gandhi’s character is another issue. I was simply pointing out that he followed the blueprint that Gandhi had already implemented successfully in India.
Also, you haven’t really pointed out how people having access to healthcare – a measure that they have been trying to pass in America for the last 30 – 40 YEARS unsuccessfully, is a scam. Is this also one of your “because I said so” arguments? If you do not understand Obamacare, read about how it works! Because America has expensive healthcare (which caused millions of Americans not to have access to it, but which they now have access to through governmentally provided subsidies and low cost healthcare packages) and because there have previously been very little regulations about who insurance companies could deny (something that Obamacare has corrected), millions of people have access to healthcare now. Again, I fail to see how this is a “scam”. Read more clearly about what it is and how it works. Don’t just listen to angry Blacks who were expecting some extra toys for Christmas from President Obama, or angry whites who hate having a Black President!
Hello again Bama…
Let me get right to some of your points…Some of which are the very reason I always say that I would rather not get into long debates online. It is apparent in many debates I’ve had over the years that many people argue from a more mainstream position that is presented by the media or mainstream history which is why sometimes I don’t want to even debate. But anyway…Let’s see…
“Lets get real – that you expect for your rich Black to ALSO be somehow “better” than everyone else is implicit in your criticisms of them”
Where did I write this? I never wrote anything about being “somehow “better” than everyone else”. Show me where I wrote this…
“you will also point out ONLY Bill Cosby and Michael Jackson and completely forget about all the other wealthy and powerful Blacks in America”
I chose MJ and Cosby not because there aren’t other rich blacks but because I wanted two obvious examples. It wouldn’t be possible to analyze all wealthy blacks so I simply chose two to illustrate my point.
“For them to be legitimate, is it absolutely necessary for them to denounce white supremacy?”
Again…Where did I write this? I never wrote anything about it being “absolutely necessary for them to denounce white supremacy”…Show me where I wrote this also…
“And if they do not publicly do this, then they are illegitimate in some way?”
As I never wrote the previous comment, ditto on this one as well…
“why don’t we put the same spotlight on whites who have lost everything and died?”
If fact, I have discovered that whites are just as exploited and controlled as blacks. But since we are speaking on prominent blacks I haven’t gone there. Too many topics and examples to show my point. I will ask this question: Do you believe that all of the celebrity deaths of the past few decades are coincidence? Whites are every bit as controlled as blacks and there are too many examples to prove this…
“Did “they” also contribute the Charlie Sheen’s HIV, or Elvis Presley’s demise at the age of 42, or Marilyn Monroe’s death at a young age”
Not sure about Sheen yet, but Elvis and Monroe were murdered. FACT! Once you look beneath the carpet you discover that their deaths are not exactly what the media reports.
“Bill Cosby and Michael Jackson played with fire (just as did all of the dead white folks I just listed) and got burned?”
Again, whites get burned and killed too.
“WELL documented that the Kennedy’s support for the Civil Rights Movement was, among other things, one of the things that got them killed.”
I disagree. Of all of the reasons for killing Kennedy, black folks were not the prime reason for his murder. The same way the Civil War was not about freeing black folks. The fact is, they don’t really give a “eff” about us. They had FAR more reasons to kill JFK. And I will advise. The first big lie I learned was that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. THAT was in y Encyclopedia when I was a kid. I write this to show you that the “official” story cannot always be trusted. They’ve lied about almost ALL of American History. The key is to know how to unlearn the lies, look at the alternative perspective and come to a reasonable conclusion about what is most plausible. We will never know ALL of the facts. But some versions of “the truth” are complete lies.
“you have chosen to not believe American history so that you can have a stronger argument, does not make what you are saying true”
I addressed this point in my previous comment. History is nothing but a lie agreed upon that is written by the winner. Since the Rockefellers took over control of education systems, we have to dig a lot deeper to get closer to the truth. The victors tell us what they want us to believe. It is for us to decipher the truth from the propaganda.
“Don’t just listen to angry Blacks who were expecting some extra toys for Christmas from President Obama,”
My research has nothing to do with angry blacks or racist whites but simply analyzing some things that are said, that I previously rejected, and then coming to my own conclusion. The story of Obama is mostly a complete fabrication. But that’s not for me to ask you to believe. It is my own conclusion. We are all free to believe what we choose and from what I’ve seen, Obama story is a complete sham. No man or woman is elected president unless they have dirt in their past. Every American president is a controlled puppet. If you don’t accept these very simple facts then there’s no point in even debating this.
Again, love a good debate, but at the same time since I stopped listening to the mainstream on certain topics, I sometimes lose the desire to have these debates.
Ok Gatas I won’t force you to continue with the debate 😀 but thank you for giving it a go!
When I wrote about how you appear to “implicitly” hold Blacks to a higher standard if they are rich, I had inferred your opinion based upon what you had written (ie. Tyler Perry? Gay agenda…next, Oprah? hasn’t rocked the boat enough…next…Will Smith?…no comment…next). Rather than simply acknowledging that, in addition to SOME Blacks being blacklisted by society and being stripped of everything, there are, in fact, NUMEROUS blacks who haven’t been stripped of everything! I would say that those ones are just better at playing “the game”, and it doesn’t mean that they are devil worshippers! They just recognize that if they want the fame and fortune, there is, in fact, a game that must be played. However, this game is applied to basically anyone on the planet who reaches a certain level of fame or fortune, and it has always been this way!
My examples of the just some of the prominent whites who have met with similar fates as MJ and Bill Cosby was to illustrate the point that prominent Blacks are not necessarily being singled out in great numbers to meet with grisly deaths or infamy. Rather, it is people who do not play “the game” correctly who meet with misfortune. You seem to be suggesting (which, again, can be inferred from your points without you having to specifically write the idea in a sentence containing those exact words) that there is a specific conspiracy against Blacks alone, and I was simply pointing out that, perhaps, rich Blacks have NOT been specifically singled out by the “system of white supremacy”. Rather, all of these people may have been singled out by a “system of the elite who don’t like people who don’t play the game that has been set up since the beginning of time.”
We will have to agree to disagree concerning JFK 🙂 It is important that you recognize the difference between the idea that JFK was shot ONLY because he supported the Civil Rights Movement (not my idea) and the idea that he and his brother were shot because they had Civil Rights as ONE of their pet projects for changing the foundation of America (my idea).
I can see that you have been going through the conspiracy sites and information. These are important bits of information as well, but remember that just because they are “alternative”, does not make them completely true either! Remember that those people selling conspiracy ideas are not poor hermits living in cave somewhere, eschewing money and fame. They are people gaining noteriety, money…just like all those people in “the system’ they claim to dislike. Remember that a thing is only “true” until it isn’t…
And just as I mentioned “the game” of the rich, there is, of course, as similar political “game” that must be played. But this is the case for ANY centuries old system that one may find himself in. Is President Obama a “controlled puppet”, or is he simply a President making his way through a well established system much older than he? Just because 1 man cannot march into the office of the most powerful country recent history has ever known and, with the wave of a wand and some executive orders, give everyone everything they want in an instant, doesn’t mean that they are merely a controlled puppet.. I feel the same about President Lula. For him to get a bit of what he wanted, he had to play “the game”. And he was quite successful at it, I might add…
In any case, thank you for your time. We don’t have to drag the debate out any further! Just keep giving us good topics to think about and PLEASE continue to get in the boxing ring with us! It takes a lot of energy from you, I know, but it is surely needed! 🙂
I also want to add that there is classism in America among Blacks. Those people you see being shot down are not educated, upper class Blacks. They are typically underprivileged blacks. And if you do not think there are upper class Blacks in America, I would suggest that you actually go there and walk around upperclass neighborhoods. The idea that “most” of us are just the dregs of society is simply not true – at least not in America. Also, you should read the recent bombshell studies that say that poor whites are basically dropping like flies – at a much higher rate than other poor groups in America. This is only “bombshell” news because there is internal “scientific” bias present when view white people. There simply have not been as many studies done trying to figure out “what is wrong with white people”. As a result, it has come as a shock to many that they are a bunch of depressed methheads, cokeheads, heroin addicts, prescription drug using, alcoholics who like to commit suicide when life just gets too tough!
Does racism still happen to rich Blacks? Yes! Are they being shot down in the streets and denied opportunity at large, as they were before the Civil Rights Movement? – uuuh, NO! Also, if you should walk through a rich neighborhood and only see a few Blacks, remember your math – we only account for about 12% of the population there.
If you are being an ideologue who is simply married to the idea of promoting the general sh*ttiness of Black people everywhere, then none of this will be of interest to you. If you are interested in facts outside of the rhetoric of “Blacks people are stuck in a white supremacist world and there is NOTHING we can do about it except start our own civilization..uhhh…somewhere…and have a economy that has nothing to do with anyone else except other Black people” , then the information may be of interest to you.